The blog-o-sphere is abuzz with postings referencing the official RAD Studio World Tour announcement starting to hit the wires, and it contains something of potential interest. I have also seen claims starting to appear that XE3 will not have any iOS support at all.
First, I have to mention again the apparent enthusiasm that Embarcadero have for shooting themselves in the foot when it comes to effective marketing.
Having already registered for my local event and having received email confirmation of that registration, it is not only annoying to get another email sent to that exact same email address inviting me all over again, but it makes one wonder just who is doing what in the Embarcadero marketing department ?
If you can’t get even the simple things right, what confidence does it inspire that you have any chance of getting the bigger things right ?
But, back to the interesting points in the World Tour announcement itself:
- XE3
- HTML Builder
- iOS Support
- Windows 8 Looky-Likey, not “native”
So, taking each in turn.
1 – XE2 is dead, long live XE2 Update 5 XE3
First up, “XE3” appears for the first time. So this really is an XE3 release not just some event marking significant progress in the evolution of XE2.
So anyone hoping that the dry period since Update #4 was the result of the promised “frequent updates” of SmokedChimp simply getting backed up in a QA back-log can give up right about…. now.
2 – What is this … “HTML Builder” of Which You Speak ?
Also this is the first time I have seen any mention of this new “HTML Builder” beastie.
However, on Andreanno Lanusse’s blog post on the matter, this newness is typographically “air-quoted”.
I also couldn’t help noticing that “RadPHP” is notably absent from the list of RAD Studio family members referenced in the World Tour event details. It leads me to wonder whether this “new” “HTML Builder” is not in-fact just another rename of Delphi for PHP RadPHP ?
3 – Alas Poor iOS Support… I Knew Him Only Briefly
With less certain provenance, I have also seen claims – in comments to both Andreanno’s and my own previous blog posts – that whatever new features may be present in XE3, one feature will actually have been removed.
iOS support
That is, whatever progress may have been made in the area of iOS support since XE2, even the level of support that was available in that release will not be present in XE3. So if you are using XE2 for iOS then – if this is true – you will be stuck with XE2 for those projects, at least for the time being.
Mr “noiossupport” seems – or claims – to have inside information relating to an update for XE3 in Q1 of next year (2013) of a revised iOS framework, which might explain the removal of the existing hack-tastic support.
If this is true then I would hope at the very least that Embarcadero will be keeping XE3 customers informed as to their intentions, and progress, in this area on a regular and effective basis, without us having to beg, cap in hand ask for the privilege of knowing how things are going with the software we have paid for.
If it Looks Like Windows 8 Then By Golly It’s Good Enough to Call It Windows 8
All of the language around the Windows 8 “support” is now very much couched in terms of “look and feel”. So it appears that my initial hunch that they have thrown together some Windows 8 looking tiley controls and containers in BurnedApe and dubbed it “Windows 8 Support” was sadly accurate.
At least they seem now to have got the memo that it isn’t “Metro” any more. 🙂
Roll on August 28th
As I mentioned at the outset, I already registered for my local Word Tour event – it will be 1 week after the first such event in Hamburg.
I guess we will only know once the actual information from the World Tour starts to get out, whether or not an XE3 “Windows 8” application will be anything remotely Windows 8 in anything other than look and feel, and whether their is any iOS support at all and what “HTML Builder” really is.
Similarly w.r.t so much else about this release that we have all had to resort to speculation and gossip about, instead of being able to discuss actual developments and expectations.
You right, no iOS support on next version. EMB promises to resolve on Q1 of 2013. Sad but true.
Thanks for named me. You welcome for the information. be tuned!
EMB respect you customers.
Knowledge is free.
We are Anonymous.
We are Legion.
We do not forgive.
We do not forget.
Expect us!
EMB has all its customers numbered and registered. Probably you’re not their customer truly 🙂
There is always Lazarus. It’s not a perfect tool, but it rarely lets you down with each new release.
How far is Lazarus?
Last time I looked, it was around Delphi 7 level.
Lazarus has improved enormous during the last year, after having improved tremendous over the years – said version 0.9.0.26 – 0.9.28 – 0.9.34 (day and night compared to it’s predecessors) and the first alpha of 1.01 was already amazing. FPC compiler is moving forward in a way that surprises me.
Agree! IMHO, FPC is much better way to make good cross platform apps: modify tool to produce native apps on platform, not mimic to platform staying in sandbox of own RTL/Frameworks with limited interop with platform.
Delphi’s improvements have also been very good. I personally don’t see a reason to complain about XE3 as it is an improved XE2. RAD Studio is the key.
There is also nothing false with having an update for FMX and the mobile operating systems in spring.
I wished some people would install Lazarus from time to time and have a look how much work and effort supporting all this is. The job is not easier for EMB too.
Improved is good, but up to which commercial version of Delphi is it?
D2007? D2010? XE/XE2?
What do you mean?
I’m developing a HD video game for both Windows 32/64-bit and Mac OS X Lion/Mountain Lion with it. No need for complicated 3rd party client/server deployment software or any other tool other than Finder to finish packaging the bundle (easily) and a Windows machine to do the Win32/64 compiles and packaging on that end.
Once the game is complete I will be using Lazarus and Xcode to port the game to the iPad.
I would not try this with Delphi on it’s best day. I develop on a Mac.
Oh and I should note that, though the FPC does try to encorporate new things added to the “Borland/Embt flavour” of the Object Pascal langauge, the Lazarus IDE project has long since stopped trying to copy Delphi versions and started doing it’s own thing. Sadly it’s a long slow process for a rag-tag band of volunteers to work out bugs of a huge LCL visual component library.
Thankfully for game developers, we don’t need all that crap. 🙂
when i think whether i’d leave Delphi i ask myself where should i flee ?
Probably i’d try something like Scala or Nemerle.
If to switch primary language, it should be a big leap worth changing all habits, most deeply learned toolchain, etc.
Or even very distant area from desktop apps like HTML5+JS an/or Go/Erlang/something exotic for servers.
Lazarus ? Me ? Why ?
I feel like the frustration EMB causes us, get blackpainted FPC and other pascal flavors. They could potentially benefit from it, capturing all Delphi refugees, but probably for most they would be damaged by poor Delphi reputation instead.
Sometimes i think, if we are all so dissatisfied with Emb Delphi, why did not we all combined to push Lazarus to be good enough ? And paradoxically, almost none of us truly would.
D5 and D7 were good solid releases allowing to make good programs for years. If they were disasters at that time i think people could switch to FPC. Now that Pascal looks more and more old-fashioned, even outdated, hardly anyone would switch to Lazarus and show EMB “would could be done better”
Ironically, i tend to believe that Delphi demise would fix FPC into ever narrowing niche tool. D5/D7 were too good products and anchored many for way too long.
AFAIK, Lazarus is still on Carbon, not on Cocoa level, and Carbon is being deprecated by Apple? Or is that wrong?
Afaik EMB is without a Mac Compiler,without Carbon and without Cocoa.
You’re correct, Lazarus targets Carbon and Apple has said that Carbon is deprecated, but hasn’t actually said what that means. Lazarus can also target Qt4 though, and that does use Cocoa on the back-end. Lazarus itself can’t be compiled using Qt on Mac due to some internal assumptions about the widgetset used, but apparently applications created using it work fine.
HTML5 Builder is the new name of RadPHP, don’t be excited is just a new name with a couple features.
Windows 8 support is just look and feel, project that started ~4 weeks ago, they hired Falafel Software to do the job. The major reason behind that it’s because the executives never listen the engineers, in order to replace the C++ 64bit compiler that will not be delivered, they came with this fake Windows 8 support.
Brought to you by Marco and Lino T. in a hack over the weekend:). Why not. I don’t get the logic – ship something completely different. Save the money and give it to the employees extra holiday. This would make sense a lot more for all involved.
Thuma you always [sucking up to] EMB, how much they pay you?
They are just releasing this support because management didn’t listen engineers. All R&D knew and notified all of them that would be impossible to deliver c++ 64 compiler on time.
What Peter said is true, HTML5 Builder = RadPHP with new look and feel.
Customers and market are not idiot!
>Thuma you always [sucking up to] EMB, how much they pay you?
Don’t blame my human avatar for just being polite. We have been asked not to say bad things about EMB ‘always’, we do it sometimes… – btw. my comment was meant smugly. btw. use my first name.
I doubt EMB does pay me something, they don’t even pay you a lot. I know. But do you think your management is the only ignorant management in this world? Ignorant managers are the rule. I personally don’t see lots of sense in adding something in exchange for the C++ Compiler, because of this. I don’t know if David I did not have an ace up his sleeve.
What is so bad about a RadPHP with new look and feel? Ok, the one user will be happy. Maybe the number of users will double. We will see communication- the number of HTML5 Builder users increased by 100%. Did you work with RADPHP before it became RAD PHP?
Look at your comments. Your are seeking excuses for not being in the position to finish ‘your’ work. Your excuse is a simple one, ‘We could not finish because our management allowed the experienced Borland Engineers to quit and they did not listen to us … we are not responsible’. Management is here to find a way without them. EMB are ‘flower children’ nothing bad. Honestly do you really think a missing 64-bit C++ Builder does hurt anyone after 6 years … the whole stuff is late for almost ‘a decade’. Does it hurt? No. Because it does not matter … be happy that it does not at the moment.
Wish you a good job in other companies where users say, ‘We have been talking now in meetings for 3 years and decided yesterday the project should have finished one year ago – so the project is already one year overdue at the time of the kick-off meeting’. Your manager has to say, ‘No, problem – we go into a meeting and discuss how we can manage the situation – one year is really a long time. Please consider we have been informed today’. At the moment the whole community is in snuggle mode…
I don’t blame EMB for what ‘you’ don’t achieve. There is a difference between having appreciation for the situation and not blaming those who do the work, compared to simply insist on vague words on a road map. Mike’s first road-map, maybe Nicks was a realistic one and maybe one year will become added. This is just normal. 20% is nothing.
Let’s investigate the result first.
On the other hand I can imagine that Jolyon is anything but happy. It’s obvious …
Bunn
Hmm. This approach to make win8 apps is leading to inability in producing Store apps? Can we sell XE3 apps in win8 store?
so to sum up:
* no ios
* no 64 bits c++ compiler, or a quick & dirty repacking of LLVM
* no real WinRT support, just mimics with a desktop app
* strictly nothing for the VCL and delphi compiler, which represent more than 90% of the user base
and rumours of layoff at emb as soon as XE3 will be out …
So, everything is there to have a release of the same quality level as Delphi 8, which was not only unstable, but also incapable to produce executables.
That is going to be great !
As for compiler/RTL – there would be post-update-4 fixes. And there are a number of bugs. But they only started addressing it in QC month after u4 release.
I feel like i’d like to purchase xe3 updated WinXX compilers + RTL + VCL and screw the rest. When i want to be beta-tester and free developer – there are a lot of opensource libs, i don’t need FMX for that.
iOS ? what is this ?
MacOS ? there is WinE for it.
I really wonder where you get such “truthiness”.
And Delphi 8 could (and still can) very well produce executables.
Maybe “no iOS support” is a good sign: FMX-style solution to produce iOS apps in not best – no native controls & performance, limited interop with frameworks on platform, limited support for recent Xcode/SDK versions.
And, maybe it’s good time for EMRO to build slightly different strategy to go cross platform: provide native UI on each platform (win8 “modern UI”, iOS, os x, more), interop with native frameworks (and ability to extend platform’s classes), support for current pascal-based code base (DataSet-based data access, other non-visual stuff).
So, they out their trust Borland/CodeGear/Embarcadero ? Fools they are.
They’d better unite and fork FMX and make independent enhanced lib, like JediVCL was once, or like Apache was born from patchsets.
If they really need FMX as it is now.
—
What about EMB – the ruke of thumb is “choose most simplistic less-work interpretation of every gossip”.
I am ashamed that i dd not figured out what HTML5 Builder is. In retrospect it was so obvious… AppBuilder (genuine Delphi name), C++ Builder, Java Builder. Just to think a bit out of Delphi box and it would be so obvious…. Shame we did not figured it earlier.
out => put
Oh wow.
Not want to sound alarmist, but when Turbo Power Software stopped their libraries, they released them to the public.
If Delphi no longer generate enough cash for EMRO, I really hope they consider similar.
Funny.
I clicked on the nearest city for this event but it does not say exactly where it’s happening.
It also says I should register but it doesnt say how to register.
If you used the world tour map, when you click on a city, the pop-up includes a “Register Now” link. Was it missing from the city you selected?
Or you could click on the date beside the city you are interested in below the map.
http://www.embarcadero.com/world-tour
I see no “Register Now” links.
But I see a register section at the bottom of English and Chinese ones.
The German ones only have an e-mail for info link. I try sending an e-mail, than.
Which city?
Also, which browser are you using? It shouldn’t matter, but the first registration page didn’t render properly in FireFox.
All Cities with german Pages. Yes, Firefox.
I see what is the problem:
On right hand is a box with links to agenda, referencers and registering.
It is too far right and there is no left right scroller, so I did not know the box is there.
In Internet Explorer you can scroll left right.
So they are dropping the FPC bodge? Good. It’s crap for customers who bought into XE2’s iOS ‘support’, but better for the product in the long run. With any bit of luck, they can now set about simplifying and cleaning up various parts of the FMX source, given they no longer need to support the lowest common denominator in terms of compiler and wider RTL.
No offence to FPC itself – it’s a fine product, but EMBT using it in order to refer to ‘Delphi’ targeting iOS was both disingenuous and dubiously short-termist, unless they were going to adopt FPC wholesale.
I disagree. I have an app that uses a large code base doing complex analysis of data coming from a web service. The ability to take that and run it on my iPhone and iPad has been great. A fix in one is a fix in the other – one single code base to work on. For some types of app, FMX is fine on iOS, and I hope that they are removing FPC to make way for their own ARM compiler that they talked of ages ago.
This is not good short term, but long term I hope that native multi-platform will be improved. (I don’t like the “hope” there, but that’s what it is.)
The fact the FMX source could not utilise newer language and RTL features was both a drag on the framework and a cause of bugs (not the main cause, but still a cause). Leaving aside FPC, the fact the iOS solution in XE2 was so half arsed generally clearly pissed off a lot of customers too. If despite everything it was good enough for you though, then great…
FMX is not a new development, but purchased library with its history and support for vast Delphi versions lineup.
Since vgScene had to support all those versions – it could not use those “new features”
Since FMX is vgScene child – it can not be deleted and written from scratch, it would be based and years-long sources.
Using “new” features ? that just could not happen realystically.
I know it was bought in, but the parts that had to be written afresh because there wasn’t the LCL underneath any more remain stuck in the 90’s too.
‘Using “new” features ? that just could not happen realistically.’
Taking more than six months or whatever it was would have helped make the timing more ‘realistic’ though, eh?
EMB purchases ksDev programmers team as well as sources. It is natural guess, that development was continued by experienced established team, and that was the team that mastered “old school”
day/months/or years – no matter. ig they could re-write, they would not purchase but write their own from scratch
You could always use FPC to create dylib or so files with your common code and then access them from Delphi for Windows, Xcode for Mac and iOS and other IDEs for other platforms to create the UIs.
I can’t help but feel that Emb are not ready to release XE3 but need to release something to meet their now yearly obligations (pull in some revenue and keep the SA people happy I guess). Emb really need to manage expectations better.
D.
Microsoft is releasing the .net framework source code or does allow access in order to debug as far as I have understood. This is a good point to be considered.
On Delphi. Afik, there will be another release in spring. In general it does make sense to ship something that does work at a later point in time. I think we both agree on this. I have had an eye on
– FPC
– Delphi
– XPower++
Dependent on what you want to develop and what your customers needs are finally … My decision has been about the first and the last 1,5 years ago. It’s everyone’s soley decision.
My estimate for Delphi had been XE4 better said one year after the XE5 release assuming you want to have third parties in place. It turns out to be become true for the road-map’s overall challenge, which is not bad, only bad for those who relied that things would become finished quicker, which has been an ‘insane’ assumption imo based on their wishful thinking and not considering the current state of evolution.
I don’t ship to others, more or less some projects that don’t go beyond the scope of neighborly help. Little bigger than an app in an Appstore with just focus on the essential functions. More helpful than spending money on advertising.
In order to stay correct – ‘release source code for debugging purposes’
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/dotnet/archive/2012/08/15/announcing-the-release-of-net-framework-4-5-rtm-product-and-source-code.aspx
Treating the debug symbols for the .net framework has been improved. In practice for the most, the insight into what’s happening is the most important information and quick as well as easy access. Hope it will become more convenient with VS2012. This option does exist since VS2008 …
Have a nice day!
Well, it looks it’s going to be a very poor release again. At least that explains why they wait so much to release informations, they’re trying to postpone the flak to the release date (and meanwhile hope someone gets the actual product + SA in hope to get a decent new release later).
Only Emb doesn’t understand they can’t release real improvements in a one year cycle, and still believe they can deceive customers.
From what I’ve seen (especially lack of real WinRT support but in Prism), this release is a no-go for us. For “Windows 8 fake app” I’ve got DevEx controls already, and as usual there’s a good chance they’re better than Delphi native ones. Otherwise we have Visual Studio already to deliver native or managed ones.
Let’s wait for XE4 or XE5.
Thanks for the information. Sad to read that XE3 does not have iOS and Android support. I currently use Appcelerator Titanium for iOS and Android Apps. Also i worked on an App which is iOS, Android and Web with 1 source. It’s mostly compatible with it.
I bought Delphi 2009 and then left it, since i never got a delphi project since 2009 in my job. Sad but true. I liked Delphi and the development in it. But i will always follow the Delphi history.
I don’t understand why EMBA always fires well trained senior engineers and ramp up junior high kids in third world countries? Now we have the result: No (i emphasize) NO progress! I ask myself: Is David I the right person at the Director position?
What, exactly, do you believe David I is directing?
If the HTML5 builder is not integrated into the same IDE as Delphi and C++ Builder I will not be touching it.
If it is just the new name for RadPHP then integration with the RADStudio IDE would indeed be a step forward for the RadPHP user in the world.
But I’ve never met the guy so I can’t be certain he would appreciate it, I just assume that he would. 😉
Re-engineering RadPHP to also focus on HTML/CSS/JS would be great for me.
I don’t have anything against PHP, but don’t need (can’t use) it right now.
Well, there are already great free studios like aptana.org
Borland was traditionalyl strong about imperative languages and Lego-like visual frameworks.
RadPHP would be seemingly paradoxical building up on those strengths. Also since PHP is server-side technology you have more control over it and easier to debug.
But how would they do outside One True Framework like VCL ?
CSS is declarative and different browsers have different levels of support and bugs.
JS is imperative and functional and who knows what – depending on your style.
HTML5 is usually not using OTF but mixing several JS libraries.
And how can RadPHP debug all those client-side things ?
They would no more be able to say “here is HTTP server to deploy, here are libraries for you, and don;t change HTML templates much”
Buy TopStyle, for CSS editing (and more)? Write some plug-ins for IE, FF and Webkit to debug client side code?
I’m not sure what point you’re making.
Aptana is OK. Brackets is very cool, but also very immature. The best IDE I’ve used so far is NetBeans, but the project management assumes PHP as well, so it’s awkward for just html.
I’m hoping HTMLBuilder is a little more focused. I’m hoping it has some DataSnap smarts, too.
Aptana has some PHP supprot as well, dunno about NetBeans. Afteral PHP just never seemed interesting to me.
But i think thre are a lot of similarities between Delphi for Delphi and Delphi for PHP.
1. The same executor for all projects, almost under full control of Emb: few Windows releases + genuine RTL/VCL vs few pre-determined server settings + genuine PHP library
2. The One True Framework approach. You have VCL and you would rarely use other widget frameworks in VCL app. Same for FMX. Same would apply for your server-side PHP.
3. Debugging is one-way road. Code is not self-mutating.
You can pause the server, spitting the page out to browser, like you can do with win32 app. The app would normally not re-compile itself. And PHP scripts are producing output HTMLs not modifiing, normally, PHP sources themselves.
4. Execution is mostly linear. VCL has one main GUI thread. PHP generating one certain page would hardly spawn.
But as i look onto HTML/JS scene i see a radically different picture.
1. A lot of different engines. Few IE versions, at least 3 engines for WebKit/KHTML family, 2 engines for Gecko, Opera.
2. Real wourld pages are frequently mixing from different libraries, maybe because are frequently assembled from several modules. Many GUi libs, many mid-level ones, in many possible combinations. Sometimes there would be >1 lib active.
3. It is normal for JS to modify structure of the page, which in turn would add/remove JS code.
4. There are frequently several JS asyncs or threads at time, potentially modifying the same data in page.
That seems to me completely different scenario from that, B/I/CG/E was traditionally strong in.
All the experience they got polishing their former scenario would perhaps be counter-productive in the latter one.
And thus turning RadPHP tailored to one scenario into all-purpose tool for another cases would just strip any value of RadPHP developers experiences and codebase.
F1 engineers can make nice BigFoot truck, and vice versa. But it would take veeeery long.
That is my guess.
More than just a new name. All will be revealed next week 🙂
HTML5 Builder is just a NEW NAME, or do you think everybody is idiot to think that a new IDE look and feel means NEW TOOL?
Also, the look and feel is not based on VCL Styles, Why? Oops, I know that, VCL Styles has a lot of bugs and just doesn’t work in real projects.
All the other IDE crash still there, even more now with the HTML code insight not working properly, even worse with the JavaScript.
STOP lying!!!!
I hope you aren’t one of the people whining that you want more information from Embarcadero. I wouldn’t waste much time on you.
“I hope you aren’t one of the people whining that you want more information from Embarcadero.”
Bruce. While there are always a few unreasonable complainers in the Delphi-sphere. Most people here seem to want EMB to change regarding Information about upcoming features & Products, so that Delphi becomes a more successful product. I personally have a great affinity to Delphi, but am dismayed at the way successive companies have mismanaged it. In my opinion EMB is following in that tragic tradition and i would like to see them change.
You are bundling all the people speaking their mind into one basket and calling them “Whiners” . This is just not true.
Jolyon’s previous post on exactly that subject was the most voted for post on “Delphi Feeds” OF ALL TIME. That has to tell you something about the depth of feeling & worry here.
By all means call out the irrational whiners, but don’t tar us all with the same brush.
I think Embarcadero could be more forthcoming, too. In fact, there are all kinds of things I wish they would do differently.
But I remember times when they did share projected plans, and when these plans changed and they were raked over the coals for it. It’s hard to blame them for being more careful about things until they are finalised.
And now this idiot (whiner) calls David I a liar. Seriously not cool, dude.
imho, people who do either are a waste of time and don’t deserve much attention.
Fortunately, David seems to have a higher tolerance for these kinds of shenanigans than I do.
And if I wasn’t clear, it’s only these unreasonable complainers you mentioned that I’m taking issue with.
As I mentioned elsewhere, there is a big difference between whining and constructive criticism.
Apologies, i misunderstood your comment.
And agree with you totally on the Idiots.
It’s a shame there seem to be so many idiots like that, they make it difficult for people offering genuine constructive criticism to be heard.
I can’t agree on using them as a “That’s why we don’t have a Roadmap anymore” argument. We all know Roadmaps are subject to change and you will always get a certain number of “irrational haters” blasting out. Having no (up to date)Roadmap or pre-release public information availabe to Dev’s is hurting everyone, not least EMB.
They really should have a long hard look at the current development tools landscape, see how other vendors are engaging with their customers, and pull themselves out of the dark ages. Personally, I think they are close to the point of no return.
The relationship btween EMB & Delphi Developers should be one of partnership and cooperation.
Currently they feel like a big faceless corp. who don’t listen, dont communicate & plain just don’t care. Their only interest seems to be in your next SA cheque.
I’m not saying that’s how it IS.
I’m saying that’s how it FEELS.
“All will be revealed…”
Led Zeppelin
Deja Vu
I’m liking that idea myself. I always feel more comfortable knowing my development tools can easily use everything I’ve done so far on a project.
IMHO, Embarcadero is trying a different approach, ala Apple.
I think they will come up with great new stuff, but only a hand-full of people know about it, if something doesn’t work they dump it and only few people know about it, otherwise it will cause a lot of negative feedback.
It’s too early and little information about what is going to be in the next release, everything at this point is pure speculation, we shouldn’t put them against the wall until the release is made.
So, for now, keep this in the back of your head, prepare for the worst, but hope for the best.
P.S. don’t forget where Delphi was before D2009, both the IDE and the compiler, they need to put quite some effort in a short period in order to improve the quality and experience, they still have some management and marketing issues, but at some point, I’m hoping that they get back on track or sell to Microsoft (:
BTW invitation to XE3 presentation highlights Visual LiveBinsing.
What is it ? Can anyone tell more about that ?
Some-thing like Visio ? Like DriectX GraphEdit ? what is that ?
You are not allowed to know anything more than what Embarcadero have condescended to tell everyone, at least not before the information is officially disseminated at the World Tour event. So for now, all you are entitled to know is what is on the World Tour information pages.
If you would like to know more before then, well, you can ask Embarcadero and they
willmay tell you but only if you promise not to tell anyone else.Most frustrating of all of course is that we all know full well that there are some people out there who do know and could answer this and many other questions, but are not allowed to do so.
Yes, the RAD Studio XE3 World Tour will start next week! Anders Ohlsson will be in Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane with Damien Bootsma. You will see everything that will be included in XE3 and also see a lot that our R&D teams are working on for the future.
Which will be utterly meaningless because after that sneak-peek behind the curtain you will then pull the shutters down again until this time next year (or later). You will take our money, offered based in no small part on what you bait us with, then expect us to hold our breath and just hope that you will follow through, with no feedback, no updates, no progress reports. Nada. Zip. Nothing. Squat.
Then in a years time we get the switch.
What we want to hear from you is not:
What we want to hear is:
If Embarcadero were married to it’s customers it could be considered spousal abuse: You neglect and abuse us then give us some flowers you bought from the supermarket on your way home from the pub once a year and expect us to love you for it.
(with apologies to anyone who’s life has been touched or affected by actual spousal abuse – I do not mean to diminish your experience in any way with this analogy)
Don’t forget to have a “Virtual World Tour” for those of us who can’t make it to a live event.
We will have online webinars for those who can’t make it to a live event. Stay tuned for registration information.
Other than Dorin Duminica’s post and a few others, all of this is mindless FUD. Wait until actual information is released and then comment instead of trying to guess.
It’s not mindless FUD – it’s angry, in some cases embittered, in others fustrated or disappointed commentary based on information that has leaked. Information that has subsequently been suppressed.
When I am asked to remove comments because they violate an NDA, I do so.
Dorin’s comment contains a statement of pure nonesense. He suggests that Embarcadero are following Apple’s approach.
But, as an Apple Developer I get regular and frequent updates both of software, tools and information from Apple before actual releases occur.
Far from being even remotely comparable, this is the exact opposite of the level and relevance of communication and updates from Embarcadero who only get in touch when they have a new
firesaleoffer (ordesperate last gaspextension to an existing one) to upgrade to products that I already have licenses for.The suggestion that Embarcadero are aping the Big Fruity One is just ridiculous.
Dorin is probable “she” 🙂
My comment
Jolyon’s comment
I’m speculating just as almost everyone else on this, it doesn’t mean I’m right.
Pure nonsense indeed (:
Dominica’s post is a very funny one. “if something doesn’t work they dump it and only few people know about “. No, if something doesn’t work they will sell it to you as the best technology ever born and then dump it three releases later. “everything at this point is pure speculation”. No, if you can read official statement well. For example they mentioned WinRT support in Prism only (of course because it’s .NET supporting it, not Prism), but in Delphi only “Windows 8 look and feel and functionalities”, no WinRT mention.
And someone who still hopes MS would ever buy Delphi (why should they, really? To compile Skype?) is speculating wildly even more.
But again the same issue arises, the lack of communication will make people speculate. And speculation in the past was usually on target. I forgot the last time Borland&C. were able to surprise me in a pleasant way.
You forgot to mention about the machine gun held to your head and a voice and in back saying: Buy this version of RAD Studio, or else!
Yes, and Microsoft bought Skype because of the black magin used in building Skype, not because of the tens of millions of users that are effectively a target for advertising.
Why do you buy Delphi anyway, to build update your personal “utility apps” to the latest version or to make money?
Early adoption may not be the best way, but it’s your choice.
Btw. you’ve misspelled my name, I guess copy-paste is not an option (;
“about the machine gun held to your head ” What is the new upgrade policy? Exactly this. When you have a large codebase written in Delphi now you’re forced to upgrade or then you have to buy it from scratch later, even if the releases you have to buy are often crap. Ask yourself why they needed such a change.
SKype written in Delphi won’t last long. As Microsft will integrate it into its product, it will reengineer it with its tools and frameworks. Most of the “black magic” (you’ve mispelled this…) of Skype is written in C, not in Delphi – and I guess they didn’t use C++ Builder.
Also the Windows 8 version of Skype AFAIK isn’t written in Delphi, becasue Delphi can’t target WinRT. Why MS should buy such a tool? The only reason may be to collect some IP – if the price is low enough . and then shut it down. Much larger dev group in MS gets shutdown in an instant.
I do agree with your opinions regarding the poor communication channels with developers. But the rest of the post is a lot of speculation. Since the main thrust of your argument is that Emba don’t announce in advance, forming judgements in advance is inadvisable.
If you want to speculate, there are alternative possibilities.
1. XE2 FMX was an alpha release. Perhaps XE3 finishes the job. That would be welcomed by many users.
2. Emba has blogged about developing new compilers to support code gen for multiple ISA targets. Perhaps they’ve been working on this. This would take a lot of time and 1 year after XE2 would be too early.
I think you should hold off on your criticism until you have real knowledge.
That said, if only Emba would let us into their dev plans then we’d be more sympathetic.
Unfortunately David, everything in this post that was educated guesswork has turned out to be frighteningly accurate.
Yes, my post was speculation, but not uninformed speculation.
Just because you can’t see the evidence doesn’t mean it hasn’t been swept under the carpet. 😉
How can you know that! XE3 has not been released yet. We don’t know what’s in it. We don’t know the progress of the various R&D projects. I basically share your views. I think they would carry more weight if you waited until product was released before delivering a verdict on it.
“How can I know that?” Really? You have no clue? I would have thought it was obvious.
Some people DO know what’s in it – somebody has to. Some of those people have shared that information in ways that Embarcadero would rather that they had not.
Embarcadero (and others) think that by asking to have material removed that contains the unauthorised citations (not just from comments to my blog), that the information itself will somehow be erased from the universe until they issue an official announcement about it and can spin it in a more positive light.
It’s as if for Embarcadero the internet was something that happened to everybody else that doesn’t affect or include them at all.
As for the “various R&D projects”. Never mind not knowing the progress, we have no clue what those projects even are. Sure, we were told some things a year or more ago, but who’s to say which projects have been dropped, abandoned, run into a wall etc and which have been picked up in their place (if any) since then.
And as for the “wait and see in darkness” approach …
The only non-salaried income earned from my Delphi hobby is AdSense revenue from this blog, which doesn’t even cover the hosting costs.
I have already been contacted by my (former) local reseller asking me if I will be renewing my SA. So I am faced with having to make a decision on spending a not insignificant amount of money based on … what .. ?
Waiting and hoping it’ll turn out to be worth it in the end ?
With mushrooms like you and some others I could name, happy to be kept in the dark and fed manure, no wonder Embarcadero see no need to raise their game. They don’t even need to make excuses with you guys lining up to do it for them.
I hate being kept in the dark. I said so above. Perhaps you are having problems remembering who said what, but it’s in plain print just above this comment.
I just think your views would carry more weight if you’d waited a month until you’d seen the announcements and had the product. You really don’t *know* anything yet.
I agree 100% regarding communication. I don’t think you can judge XE3 yet.
David, you are ignoring the part where I try to make it plain that there are some things we don’t need to wait to know. We already know them, we just aren’t supposed to.
The removal of iOS support was right on the money.
David I, in his comments to this blog (no “official” admission as yet), has confirmed that Windows 8 is “on the roadmap” – hence not in XE3. Only SDK apps are supported currently (i.e. Win32, not WinRT). Prism may support WinRT, but we’re talking about DELPHI specifically, not RADStudio in general.
That it is called XE3 wasn’t hard to predict and was already known. The fact that XE2 won’t get any more updates would be a radical break from history and policy – despite the fact that the published “Supported Products” policy indicates that current and one previous Delphi is eligible for hot fixes, patches and updates. When was the last time we saw any such thing for anything other than the current version of Delphi?
So that’s 3 of 4 confirmed by my reckoning.
Only HTMLBuilder being a rebadging (+upgrade, no doubt) of RadPHP to go…
I have to say my Crystal Ball appears to have been working really quite well so far. 😉
Given the current HTML5 hype. I think “HTML Builder” is a better tag than RadPHP. Of course having PHP support in a web development product is important. Having HTML in the name is probably a better marketing move right now?
I heard the “Arm compiler is not ready, will be available in january 2013” too from fairly reliable sources.
So independently from two sides that makes it likely true.
I just hope my last year’s purchase in September gets me this version free.
It will if you purchased Software Assurance. It won’t if you didn’t.
Hello:
If the Windows 8 UI (formerly known as Metro) support in XE3 is only a set of components that emulate the Win 8 UI style, users of older versions of Delphi can use a third-party component library to achieve the same effect.
I did see that one third-party Delphi component company has released a set of VCL controls for developing Metro style interfaces. However, this may be using VCL components to develop traditional Win 32 programs that emulate the look and feel of Metro and are not native Metro programs. (I am not sure how this is being implemented.)
See: http://www.tmssoftware.com/site/advmetro.asp .
Cheers,
Jerry
it also scales nicely
XE3 – HTML5 Builder
XE4 – HTML6 Builder
XE5 – HTML7 Builder
…
The bald facts are right, but you are judging them out of context.
iOS support removed. Well yes, but iOS support was lame before. It’s removed because they are in the process of doing it right. Wait until the new ARM compiler is available and judge them then.
The Win 8 aspects seem less clear. Project templates to make a desktop app look like a Modern UI app would seem worthless to me. I’d hope for some clarity about future plans in the upcoming announcements.
Your main thrust of many of these whining posts appears to be the bad value of SA. You can’t judge that until you know more.
I really wish that Emba would be more open and learn to communicate better.
iOS support removed AND NOT GOING BACK IN. Mobile Studio – a new product apparently bought and paid for separately – will be required in future.
Yes, if you have an “active” (whatever that means) XE3 license you can get on the beta, but if you want the full product – pony up.
Win 8 – amazing that you can’t bring yourself to face the facts. heck, they even go so far as o call it “Metropolis” rather than “Metro”. It’s not Windows 8, not even in [former] name.
I’m not aware of the Mobile Studio thing. Has that been announced? What is the pricing? Did I miss that?
Hard to blame Emba for Metro naming confusion. Tim Anderson has some interesting thoughts: http://www.itwriting.com/blog/6329-embarcardero-previews-metropolis-in-rad-studio-xe3-fake-metro-apps.html
What facts am I not facing up to? I don’t think desktop apps pretending to be Modern UI is a go-er. Sounds a bit like the FPC iOS fudge. I would hope to learn that WinRT/Modern UI support is coming.
Mobile Studio was “announced” at the Hamburg World Tour date. I am surprised you didn’t read about it. For someone so keen to rely only on “official” information I would have thought that – like I – you would have been watching reports from that event like a hawk.
The “facts” you aren’t facing up to is that the Win 8 position is quite clear – your apparent confusion looks like resistance to accept those facts. But in the light of your lack of awareness of Mobile Studio some lee-way should be given I suppose. 🙂
The Win 8 position is simply this: In XE3 there is no “Windows 8 Support” except in so far as there is a new “Metropolis” style and GUI framework that LOOKS like a Windows 8 Modern UI app. There is no WinRT support (coming at some point in the future – we’ve heard that before tho, right ?). Ditto ARM from the compiler.
There is Windows 8 support in the sense that desktop apps will run on Windows 8, as will the IDE. No true Modern UI.
Given that Win8 went RTM a fortnight ago, one can hardly accuse Emba of tardiness. If there’s no WinRT/Modern UI support in XE4 then that would be poor.
By that logic, Delphi 2010 “has Windows 8 support”. XE2 almost certainly does.
And you still insist that you aren’t refusing to see that the Emperor is naked ?
Have you read this yet?
http://www.itwriting.com/blog/6347-third-party-compilers-locked-out-of-windows-runtime-development.html
Your comments about no WinRT support don’t look so clever now.
I just think you need to give the people from Emba time to speak. Just as you do, I find the quiet periods between releases frustrating. But it is what it is. That’s why you should wait until all the facts are on the table before sticking you foot in your mouth.
David, if they can’t support it because of things that MIcrosoft are doing then that’s what they should be telling us, and more directly than this. Instead they put out flim-flam and obfuscation and half-truths in the information to customers to try to give the impression that they have delivered more than they actually know they can. The fact that they cannot deliver more than they can is not their fault. They way they handle the communication of that situation absolutely is.
It is frankly ridiculous that you offer up as validation and justification of Embarcadero’s approach, a post containing crucial information to Delphi costumers buried deeply in a forum reply thread about HTML Builder !!
I don’t know how you think this helps you make your case. It further establishes mine: That Embarcadero seem to have their thumbs up their ass when it comes to knowing how to effectively communicate with their customers.
Embarcadero don’t need more time to speak, from me or anyone else. They have had ample opportunity. They chose not to. My “giving them more time” isn’t going to encourage them – far from it.
Sheesh.
I agree 100% that Emba’s communication with its clients is poor. I’ve never disputed that. As I have said all along in this thread, it’s the way you get the message across that lets you down. If you’d waited until after all the release events then your message would have carried more weight. In my view. I think we’ve both made our points now, don’t you?
To say it is not going back in is a bit daft. That’s like saying that they are taking the wobbly wheels off the shopping trolley AND NOT PUTTING THEM BACK ON! No, because they are fitting deluxe wheels, but they aren’t in stock just yet. (You can of course carry on with the wobbly trolley for now).
XE2 showed a good proof of concept for iOS development. I have a working app that uses my existing complex back-end Delphi code. But it needs a better dev environment, and it is coming, just not quite as quick as anyone would like.
The iOS support that was removed from Delphi won’t be going back in TO DELPHI. It is being spun out into this new, apparently separate “Mobile Studio” product.
To use your own analogy, what is happening is this:
People bought a particular trolley, understanding that the wheels on it were a bit wobbly but that this was going to be improved in the next trolley. We now have that “next trolley” and not only are the wheels not improved, they’ve been taken off entirely with nothing in their place – if we want to use the trolley for anything that requires wheels then they tell us just to keep using the old one. They are also telling us that if – and only if – we buy this new, wheel-less trolley then we get to try out the prototypes of a new super-deluxe trolley, but if we want that super-deluxe trolley when it is finished then we will have to buy it separately.
I think you are reading too much into the Embarcadero statement, probably based on the Dr Bob post which says it is separate. Where does Embarcadero say it is separate? It would be daft to have all that “target” stuff and not use it. But maybe it is an optional extra – that would make sense.
Before Microsoft agreed to stop using the Metro name, Microsoft had a very confusing message about what “Metro App” meant. On one page it was described as only a visual style. On another page, Microsoft stated that Metro apps would only run on WinRT.
Since Metropolis projects use the Win32/64 API and not the WinRT API, calling those projects “Metro” would have been a Very Bad Idea.
Mind you, I think Emba is making a huge mistake with Metropolis as-is. I think the first impression people will get is that WinRT apps can be built with Delphi XE3. Only after reading the fine print will they realize this is not true. In my opinion, it is a confusing and deceptive marketing message.
I don’t think it was confusing at all. “Metro”, now “Modern UI” in the context of Windows 8, was the look-and-feel of a WinRT app (did anyone ever suggest using Delphi to develop for XBox or Windows Phone?). For Windows 8 it was not (as far as I am aware) possible to write a WinRT “desktop” app.
Embarcadero are the ones causing the confusion by co-opting this “Metropolis” moniker, which refers to something which looks like a WinRT visual app but isn’t.
As if that wasn’t enough, they chose a name presumably deliberately similar to “Metro” but simultaneously missing the meaning in that original name. “Metro” wasn’t short for “Metropolis” – it was a reference to the design “language” of public transport systems signage. Yes, often found in large cities (metropolii ? :)).
i.e. “Metro” is to “London Underground”/”The Tube” as “metropolis” is to “London”.
So on the one hand Embarcadero have created plausible deniability “Oh? Sorry, no this clearly isn’t Windows 8 because it’s our own thing called ‘Metropolis’ [cough]“, but on the other hand they are clearly trying to make it look like they have Windows 8 support, and using language to further confuse things (“support Windows 8 SDK apps”) when, after you boil it down to what actually matters, they simply don’t.
Yet.
“Coming soon“.
(Like we haven’t heard that before… ).
Attening the Auckland xe3 launch. Sounds great but I think I will wait for xe4. Burned once not again. Also listening to demo it feels like fm2 and html5 builder are trying to achieve the same goals. I will skip thus version. Mobile studio might be worth buying when it comes out. I will wait fir reviews first though. 🙂